Interview with Dorothy Karsten

Bernice Cowan (BC): My name is Bernice Cowan and today's date is August 22nd, 2007; and the time is now 5:15 [p.m.] I'm conducting an interview with Dorothy Karsten in her home in Steeleville, Illinois, for the Quilters' [S.O.S.] - Save Our Stories Project. We are doing this through the American Heritage Committee of the Illinois State Society Daughters of the American Revolution.

Dorothy is a quilter, and is also a member of Liberty Bell of the West Chapter [NSDAR.] National Society Daughters of the American Revolution. The quilt that is the subject of this interview is a handmade hand quilted "Underground Railroad Quilt" entitled, 'The Long Road to Freedom - A Heritage Remembered." It was entered into the fiber arts quilt category of American Heritage [Committee.] here in the state of Illinois. The quilt won first place here at the state level in Illinois. It then progressed on to compete in the North Central Division which consists of seven states. It also won a 1st place at that level. The quilt then went on to the national competition in Washington, D.C., and it tied for second place at that level. Dorothy was presented with her national award during the 116th Continental Congress of the National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution in Washington, D.C.

Dorothy I want to first thank you for allowing me to be here in your home to conduct this interview. I'd like to start with a little bit of background information, and I'd like you to tell me a little bit about the quilt that is the subject of today's interview.

Dorothy Karsten (DK): Well, it's the "Underground Railroad Quilt" and it is entitled, 'The Long Road to Freedom," and it has fifteen blocks, and ten are primary code blocks, and five secondary code blocks. The quilt is not only a beautiful piece of art, but it also tells a story about a very dramatic chapter in our nation's history. It is a story about how countless slaves made their way out of bondage risking death for freedom. These quilts were part of a coded message used to communicate, because slaves were not permitted to read or write. The quilts would be hung one at a time on a fence or a cabin door, left to quote, 'air out' while communicating a special action or step in the journey. The idea of an underground railroad taking people north to freedom was used to describe the network of abolitionists and safe housekeepers that helped slaves escape to Ohio and Canada. Safe houses along the way were known as stations. Those who guided escapees were called conductors, and the runaways themselves were called passengers. They were guided on a two hundred and fifty mile journey [DK feels that 2500 miles is actually the correct miles for the journey.] from the south inter-twined through out the north and eventually to Canada. The most amazing feature was this lack of normal organization. The accounts are scare because of the movements of secrecy. The oral history of the Underground Railroad has been passed down from generation to generation for the past hundred and fifty years. This history teaches us that the slaves were taught how to achieve safe passage just by following messages in certain quilt patterns.

BC: What do you think a judge or judges that have looked at this quilt at different levels throughout its competition might have concluded about you in looking at the quilt?

DK: Well, I look at it as though I would be judging, and I hope that the judges did too - the quality of the work, the quality of the material, the story it tells, and the history that goes with it.

BC: I would like to change gears here just a little bit, and I would very much like to ask some questions about you. Tell me if you would about your interest in quilts and quiltmaking.

DK: I became interested in quilts when I was only about twenty-one, twenty-two years old. There were two German ladies here, Frieda Donze and Esther Schaudt. They were older women that did a lot of quilting. Frieda did quilting as a money making project for herself, and Esther just did it for her own entertainment. Each of them had the patience to teach me how to quilt because I had never had any experience in it before.

BC: How old were you when you started to quilt or when you made your first quilt?

DK: I was probably about twenty-one or twenty-two years old, and I had embroidered the blocks, but I didn't know what to do with them, and Frieda and Esther were the ones that helped me to get them together, and then I made my first quilt then.

BC: How many hours a week do you think you quilt?

DK: Well, that depends on how much I can get by with. Lots of times it is most all the time from eight o'clock in the morning until eleven, twelve o'clock at night and especially in the winter that is my usual hours. And, in the summer it is not quite as much because I spent more time putting the tops together to have them ready to quilt in the winter.

BC: What's your first quilt memory?

DK: My first quilt memory was--the cross stitching was in black and the flowers were yellow. I didn't know anything about it at the time, but now I see a lot of improvement that could have been done.

BC: Did those original blocks ever make it into a quilt?

DK: Yes, they did. [laughs.] I don't show it though.

BC: [laughs.] Are there any other quiltmakers in your family, or do you have friends that engage in this hobby and craft?

DK: No one in my family quilts. I have a number of friends that quilt. I belong to two different quilt clubs, and the one here in town we meet twice a year to quilt, and we start out by picking a pattern and then each person that belonged to the club made that many blocks and then we exchanged them. And the other quilt club I belong to is in Highland, Illinois, and that is called the Thimbleberries Quilt Club.

BC: Okay. You made friends while--other than sharing talent for quilting what have you, made friends through these guilds that you are active in?

DK: Oh yes, because to attend the meetings you have to have the same interests. So, we've all got quilting on our minds, and we exchange ideas and patterns occasionally.

BC: Tell me, have you ever used quilts or quilting to get though tough or difficult or tough times?

DK: Yes, I have. At times if my nerves get to bothering me, or I would get worried about something or another, and it is easier to go and sit down and quilt; or get to the sewing machine and start sewing quilt blocks together or cutting out pieces to be sewn together, or just hunting out a quilt book to look for different ideas.

BC: What is it that you find most pleasurable about making quilts or quilting quilts?

DK: The most pleasurable part would be the fact that seeing the finished product and seeing how pretty it is, and knowing that I had accomplished something when I'm done.

BC: Okay. Can you tell me a funny story or a funny experience that has maybe happened or occurred from your quilts or quiltmaking or teaching quiltmaking?

DK: Well, it's kind of a sad situation. Some of the ladies in the quilt club here didn't realize what they needed to be doing when they were putting the blocks together. They didn't use quarter inch seams, or the seams didn't match, and some of them just wanted to be known as belonging to a quilt club, and they had no pride in their work. And, so it was kind of a sad situation. We had to come home and redo a lot of the blocks because we couldn't use them as they were. They had to be either cut down, or ripped apart and reseamed and so forth. And, so that's the worst experience I think I've had.

BC: So, you basically had to convert them from a jigsaw puzzle to a quilt top.

DK: Yes. [laughs.]

BC: On the other side of that coin, what part of quiltmaking or quilting do you least enjoy?

DK: Oh, I love all of it. I don't think that there is any part, oh, only the fact of trying to work with the blocks that the others didn't take any pride in putting together right, and then when you have to sit there and rip everybody else's work apart and redo it, it isn't very enjoyable then.

BC: You told me that you belong to a couple of quilt guilds. Again, what were those two quilt guilds? Basically, what--are they different or--

DK: The Sofa and Quilt Club here in town [Steeleville, Illinois.], we meet twice a year. In March we meet and get a project lined up, and then in September we're supposed to have a quilt top put together or even quilted if we're that swift, and then we have our projects that we put together and show everybody else what we have done. And the Thimbleberrries Quilt Club which is at Highland, Illinois. It is an altogether different quilt. We just get the material, and then we come home and do them all on our own. We get the instructions that go with it. We meet every month. And then every three months we get another piece of material or several pieces of material and another set of instructions.

BC: So, basically your participation in that particular quilt guild is on the more advanced level would you say?

DK: Yes, very much so. I don't know. I'm not as interested in it, and I probably won't be doing it again because it is just not my style of quilts, and I am not that interested in it, but I will finish this project.

BC: What makes those quilts different from the ones that you put together and design or create? What is the difference between the two?

DK: Well, we're given the instructions and the material on the Thimbleberries Quilt and the pattern has already been selected and that is just what we are presented. Where with the local club we select a pattern, but then we go and get our own material, and we make our own whatever we want to make out of it. We choose our own way of doing it, putting the patterns together and so forth just as long as we use the same theme for that year.

BC: So, on the local level you are allowed to be considerably more creative in your work.

DK: Yes, yes.

BC: So that allows you to apply the color and design and to actually to paint the picture to your own liking as you put the quilt together.

DK: Yes, we are allowed to go and pick out our own material, and put it together as we see fit or if we want to put it all into quilt we can do that, or if we want to make small wall hangings out of the pattern and so forth. Whatever we want to do, but we do have to use the same pattern.

BC: I know that in recent years, different forms of quilting have become pretty popular. How have advances in technology or other technological, maybe that's not--but how has that influenced your work?

DK: I am not interested in the machine quilting or anything like that. I like to stay with the old fashioned putting them together, cutting out your own blocks, and hand quilting them because that is the way that they all started out, and these were all pieced quilts. Today they are getting more into machine quilting, and also far more advanced in the pictures that they put on them or make and so forth, and I am not really that interested in them because that isn't--I like to follow the old way of doing it, and the older people just had pieces of material together with whatever they had to do it with.

BC: So, that leads into my next question. What are your favorite techniques and materials? I know that I have seen different types of quilts that you have done, and they certainly range a wide range of--they're all beautiful, but I know they vary in the kinds of quilts. I've seen embroidery quilts that you have done. I have also seen just a solid quilt that had beautiful designs. So what's your favorite? You've got a favorite in technique or materials that you use?

DK: I definitely like to have good material first of all, and then I like to get the pattern that I want to use it with, and 'Yes,' I have a number of different types of quilts that I have made. I have made some tied quilts. The whole cloth quilts, and I have done embroidery quilts and I have pieced quilts, and I enjoy making all of them. They all represent something different, and that way it's not boring to be doing the same thing all the time.

BC: Tell me in my conversation with you, it kind of comes across to me that when you put these beautiful pieces of art together, it is almost like a painter or painting a picture. Is that how you assimilate color and design like painting a picture when you put those beautiful blocks and designs together?

DK: Yes, I like to go through quilt books and select patterns and get something in mind and then I go to the store, and hunt material to go with it. Sometimes I come home and I change it a little bit, but otherwise I try to stick with the design that I had in mind when I went to get the material.

BC: So, you would say then color is almost a really a vital part of the design so much as the blocks themselves.

DK: Yes, Ma'am, it is. I want it to look like a nice quilt when I get it done, so I try to get the best material to match the pattern that I have selected. I want it to be something that would be of interest to somebody else also.

BC: Can you tell to me or describe to me your studio or the area that you use to create these pieces of art that you do?

DK: Well, fortunately I have a big house, and I have half of it that I have turned it into just strictly sewing, quilting; and the other half I live in. This way I just lay out my work and leave it lay. I have machines setting out all the time, and I can sew, or I've got my quilting frames out and I can quilt whatever I decide to do at the time.

BC: So you basically have a duplex then, a creative side to your home; and a living side to your home.

DK: Yes, I do. [BC laughs.] And I am fortunate enough with all this room why I can leave my projects lay out, and then when I come back then I am ready to just pick up and go on. That helps a whole lot too because it kind of takes down on the time and your interest if you have to keep picking it up and putting it away. And, anyone who comes to my house knows that when they're coming in what I call the sewing side, that's exactly what it is. It's the sewing side.

BC: I am curious to know how many quilts have you got in the process so to speak right now?

DK: I've got one in the frame. I've got, I think, five more in the process that are waiting for quilting this winter.

BC: As I came in I saw that one in the frame. Can you tell me a little bit about that one? I know that it is a special design, or it seems to me it is.

DK: Yes, that is done in shades of blue, and it is the Log Cabin quilt; and it has either fifteen or eighteen blocks in it. It'll be a queen size quilt. Like I said there's three or four different shades of blue, and then there's sashing in there that is kind of an off pink. It follows the main start-out block in the Log Cabin quilt which when you know the story of the Underground Railroad and the Log Cabin block - the main small block that you start out with if it is red or in a shade of pink then it is meant to the slaves that there was heat in the cabins. So, that is the reason I followed in the line of the pink sashing, and then the pink in the center of the Log Cabin block itself.

BC: This might be interesting to know in the Underground Railroad when that chimney or the square piece in the middle was black. What does that mean?

DK: When it was black it meant that the black slaves were welcome there. If it was red, then it meant that there was heat in the cabin, and then if it was yellow it meant that there was a light around there. And so, they knew by the color what they could do.

BC: That's amazing. Do you use a design wall?

DK: I do my designing all on the floor. [laughs.] I get out my books and kind of go from there. I come up with a design and then I start making my blocks, and then I lay them out on the floor and I decide from there what I'm going to do as far as putting them together; or whether I like the color that I got to put into them, and then I change them from there if I need to.

BC: So, basically the floor is your easel. Is that what you are saying? [laughs.]

DK: Yes, yes, that is my place.

BC: Well, that sounds like a convenient place to--and a great place to do this work, remarkable work that you do and apparently it is the right way because it has been very successful for you. Tell me what do you think makes a great quilt?

DK: Well, first of all I think that your great quilt has to come from your material first of all, and then your pattern, your workmanship, and really your interest, and your pride in putting the quilt together.

BC: So, then the end result reflects all of these--all these aspects.

DK: That's right.

BC: What would you say makes a quilt artistically powerful?

DK: Well, I would say mainly the color and then the design would be your two best selections. Well, your workmanship and all of that would go into it I think.

BC: Do you think that color compliments design and vice versa?

DK: Yes, I do because I mean you can put some things together, and they just don't have anything in common at all; and you can change a color or change a piece of the pattern and changes it completely and looks a whole lot different.

BC: So, basically, you basically paint a quilt top. Is that what I am hearing?

DK: Well, I guess that is what you could call it.

BC: I am not a quilter, but that's what it sounds like what you just described to me. Tell me then what makes a quilt appropriate for a museum or a special collection?

DK: Well, since that would be a museum or something like that you need something of history value, something that's going to tell a story, and it has to have an interest or your people won't be looking at it and if they're not looking at it, they're not learning anything in the line of history or coming up with any stories to go with it.

BC: Do you think that maybe a quilt in a museum or special collection basically paints a picture of the quilter that made it?

DK: Yes, I do. I would say it does because it shows that the person had an interest in the project that they were working on, and if it's pretty enough and has enough story to it, I think it would draw your people into seeing the quilt, and they would get more interested in quilting or in other things in the library.

BC: Do you believe that quilting and quiltmaking is a talent, a God given talent?

DK: Yes, I believe that it is and a lot of people say that they can sew. Well they can sew, but they don't have the--I don't know, the interest to really take the right interest in putting something together to make it look nice. And, if you don't do that, I don't think that there is any value to the quilt when it is done - when you spend that much time in it.

BC: So, basically what I am hearing you say is that the talent is to being able to put the color design into a pattern as you see it in your mind.

DK: Yes, it takes a lot of imagination sometimes, and you just change your mind a lot of times, and other times it will work out the very first time that you come up with some idea.

BC: What makes a great quiltmaker?

DK: Well, first of all I would say that they have to have a lot of interest in it because that reflects mainly on your quilt. If you do a good job, and have a good pattern, good material, and good workmanship, you will have a good quilt, and it takes all that to make a good quilter, I think. And then you will have something to be proud of and if you take an interest in it, you'll do a good job.

BC: How much does patience and perseverance play in a project such as this?

DK: It takes a lot of patience because I have to admit I'm awfully picky. I want corners to match, seams to match, and I want it to look like something that somebody else would want and be proud of. And, you have to have all that into it or you've wasted your time, I think.

BC: When you go to quilt shows or anywhere of something of that nature, what kinds of quilts are you drawn to? What catches your eye?

DK: First of all, I am looking at workmanship, and there again like I always say - I look for how the seams are matched, the colors in it; well the quality of the work mainly. I just like to see how they're put together and the colors that they have used. You know, just the general way that they put the quilt together mainly. And I do like the pieced quilts a lot better. That is kind of where I mainly go first.

BC: In our interview you have mentioned the names of two ladies that have been very influential in both teaching you how to quilt, and inspiring in you the love of quilting and quiltmaking. What was it about their work their quilts or what have you, the quilts mainly; and their talent the way that they applied it. What was it about those two ladies that inspired you as a young and inexperienced quiltmaker?

DK: Their patience to put up with me, and try to teach me how to quilt. They were both very patient older ladies, and they were more of an inspiration to me because I had no idea of how to make a quilt, what it began with or how it ended. They were very good to help me with it, and they always let me help on their quilts. Frieda [Donze.] did hers for making money for a living, and she did mainly a lot of pieced quilts. Then the other lady, Esther Schaudt, she did mostly--all of hers were embroidery quilts, and it was just mainly the patience that they had in teaching me how to quilt when I wanted to quilt and didn't know how.

BC: I am just curious. I haven't had the opportunity or the privilege to see any of the quilts that these two ladies made, but in retrospect how did their quilts differ from the quilts that I have seen that you have made.

DK: Well, I would say that the biggest thing was strictly the fact that back then they were doing them just to have a quilt. The workmanship at that time was good for them on what they were doing. I can see a lot of mistakes that were made. I've tried through the years. I've had to go on and these dear ladies are no longer with me, and so I've had to learn a lot on my own. And, in all the years in the garment factory, [29 years total, Lowenbaum Manufacturing Co. Sparta, Illinois, Pinckneyville Garment Company, Pinckneyville, Illinois, and Intuitions, Sparta, Illinois.] you had to learn to make your seams match and everything, and I can see that when I go to quilt things that I see them first of all is the workmanship and I know that in the quilts that Frieda made - she just quilted them. Other ladies had made the quilts. I do remember them too, the seams didn't match, and the corners weren't square. They were just put together, and we just quilted and did the best we could with what we had. Where now then I remember all that, and I try to have more pride in seeing that mine is done more particularly.

BC: What do you think that those two ladies would think, or what would their opinions be of the quilt that you have made? This beautiful Underground Railroad quilt. What do you think that they would think?

DK: Well, I am sure that they would be very proud, and I really resent the fact that I am not able to let them see what they did get me started at. I do make sure that people know that they were the ones who influenced me in learning how to quilt. I don't take all the credit all on my own because they were the ones who got me started or I probably would have never been able to do it today. I just wish that somewhere along the line I could share it with them and let them see what they helped me with.

BC: I am sure that they both know, and I would say the biggest pride of a teacher would be in seeing the accomplishments of their student and you've certainly done them both proud. Now we are going to switch to a different realm, but I also would like to ask you about how do you feel about the newer more modern forms of quilting such as machine quilting, and I think I even like machine quilting versus even hand quilting or even hand quilting versus what I think might be a newer form of quilting - longarm quilting. I know that there is a vast difference between the different forms of quilting, and do you consider them the same art form?

DK: No, I do not. I prefer to stay with the old hand quilting because that was the way that it all started out, and I think through the years, the actual education on making quilts has been lost to a big extent because they're just going to too much quilting on machines. It looks too commercial, and I don't think that it looks like the old fashioned quilts. I don't think that the people actually realize what they are missing by not staying with the hand quilting or the old fashioned quilts as I call them.

BC: Do you think that hand quilting is an art form that is becoming less and less popular or are we--is this something that you feel might disappear all together some day?

DK: I am afraid that it is going to disappear because it does take a lot more time, and you've got to have pride in it because the smaller your stitches and the more even your stitches are, the nicer the quilt looks. Most people today with their quilts, they want to start it today and have it finished tomorrow, and with hand quilting you definitely don't do that. You have a lot of sore fingers, but that is just part of it, and when it is done you forgot that you had them.

BC: When you pick up and quilt to look at it, what is the first part that you look at?

DK: I have to admit that it's workmanship. I like to see how--what size stitches there are, and I go back there again to how your seams match and your corners, and how the material, the colors all go together.

BC: Do you feel that the way a quilt looks on the back side is as important as the way that it looks on the front side?

DK: Yes, I do because a lot of times--like my quilts, a lot of them can be reversed, and you need the back side to look just as nice as the front side. And, some people don't get them quilted all the way through either, but I think the design on the back is a lot of times just as pretty or sometimes even prettier than the right side. It just depends on how much quilting you put into them.

BC: What about the way that a quilt is finished off, you know, how important is that to both the story or the message that the quilt conveys, as well as how important is that to the overall craftsmanship of the quilt?

DK: Well, all of my quilts. I always put what some of them call Prairie Points others just call points. I always like to do that. Some of them I just use one color. The Underground Railroad quilt I have used every piece of the material, every different color and everything I have used to put the points all around it to draw them out. And, then I always blind stitch them on the back so that you can't tell that they have been hemmed and then that way they can be turned to the top side or the bottom side either one for display.

BC: So, basically you consider the way a quilt is finished is sort of like the frame for the picture.

DK: Yes, I do. Yes, because you have to make sure that you get your backside and your hemming all as nice as the top side because that shows just as much as anything else does and you need to have that out flat. I always blind stitch fine so that then the stitching don't show, and then way it could be used either way.

BC: Okay. On to another realm of interest. Why is quiltmaking important in your life?

DK: In my life it is important because it is something that I can do, and I am very proud of my projects and when I get it finished I have given several quilts away, or a number of quilts away, and I have sold a few. It's just a big part of my life because it's something that I can accomplish and it does take a lot of time, but I have something when I'm finished with it.

BC: In all the different quilts that you've made and different--I guess style is the right word, embroidery versus the solid design plus all the different various pieced quilts that I have seen--do you think these designs and types of quilts in any way reflect this community specifically or region that we live in here in southern Illinois?

DK: Yes, I do this is pretty well what is done. Most of it right now is pieced work. I still do some embroidery work, but the main part of it now is strictly pieced work, and it is more or less kind of common patterns and so forth that are used, like the Thimbleberries it is a completely different project altogether. This way it is a challenge for us to pick out our own project, and do your own thing. And, this way you can either have a quilt if you belong to a club and are all going to use the same pattern, you're going to have different materials and different ideas about how you're going to put them together. I like that a whole lot better, and then everybody's got his own way of putting them together, and his own idea of the material and the colors that they want to use. With this it is more I guess you would say common patterns and so forth. It's not the big pictures and everything like with the Thimbleberries quilt.

BC: So, you then believe that a lot of an individual's talent as well as personality goes into her quilt designs?

DK: Yes, I do.

BC: That's amazing. What importance do you think that quilts have in American life?

DK: Well, I think that it is important because when you--if you are able to receive a quilt as a gift, it shows that somebody cared and they spent a lot of time doing it, and you hope and pray that they do appreciate everything that you put into it because it is not a fifteen minute job, and it is an honor to receive one of these quilts. They are used a lot for baby quilts, wedding quilts, or just a friendship quilt, and they have a lot of meaning.

BC: What ways then do you think that a quilt has special meaning for a woman in American history?

DK: Well, I would say mainly as gifts. The ones who don't know how to quilt, some of them do appreciate them, and others don't because they don't know how to take care of them and don't realize the time and effort and so forth that goes into making a quilt. Some people feel it is an honor to receive one of these quilts, and of course that makes it more valuable too when you know that somebody cares.

BC: Tell me, how do you think that quilts can best be preserved for the future?

DK: Well, the best way to preserve them is in the way you take care of them. You have to be very careful when you are washing them. You want to wash them with cold water. You don't want to just hang them on the clothesline because with the weight of them. it will just pull down and it'll pop your seams. Another thing, when you are storing them you don't want to put them in plastic bags because they can't breathe. You don't want to put them just strictly in a wood box or something, because they leach out from the box and so forth. Your best way to preserve them is to strictly put them in pillow cases and that way they are not touching anything else, and they are able to breathe that way and you want to use a very mild soap when you are washing them and just a lot of tender loving care and respect that you have the honor of having a hand quilted quilt.

BC: You mentioned that you'd given some of your quilts as a gift and so forth to friends and family. Do you know what's happened to those quilts or how they are being used?

DK: Well, some of them are put in a cedar chest. I know my niece and nephew, they have kept theirs back. They want to keep them for keepsakes. Aunt Dorothy made them for them. My granddaughters I made some for them that were just for them for their own use everyday. They wanted to have some, and I also have some here that they will get later on. There is a lot more work and expense in them, and as they get older then they will get the quilts, and I will have taught them how to take care of them and preserve them.

BC: Basically, some of them are going to be family heirlooms then?

DK: Yes, I hope so. [side A of tape ends.]

BC: So, then hopefully the stories that you have told me, your granddaughters then will pass along with the quilts as they pass them on to their kids.

DK: Yes, I hope so.

BC: So, finally what do you think the biggest challenge confronting quilting is today?

DK: The biggest challenge is getting good material, and it is getting harder to get good material because there are so many of the quilt stores are closing, and so we have to go further to get the material; and I always want to make sure that I do get good material because there is a lot of work and expense that goes into them, and you want them to last.

BC: Well, Dorothy that concludes probably all that I have to ask, but I'd also would like to ask is there anything that you'd like to add to this interview or anything that you want to say?

DK: Well, the only thing that I have would be that your most important thing is to take good care of the quilts and get good materials, do good workmanship on them, and like I say, take good care of them when you have got them, and then they will last forever. And then that way there is always a keepsake for somebody.

BC: Well, I would like to thank Dorothy Karsten for allowing me to interview her here today as a part of this Quilters' [ S.O.S.] - Save Our Stories project. Our interview is now concluded at 6:05 [p.m.] on August 22, 2007.